Hutchinson football vs. Rockhurst
July 20, 2008 @ 8:28 p.m. by Joannaby joanna
Why am I bringing this game up? I mean, it’s more than a month away, so what’s up with that?
Well, I thought I’d bring you the link to the Kansas City Star’s story on the Rockhurst QB who has committed to Illinois.
I’m sure there’s some Hutch fans who want to chat about this. But here’s two other topics within this topic. No. 1 — why hasn’t Hutchinson had more Division I signees? I’ve talked about this with Dreiling and it doesn’t make sense to either of us. I can’t imagine that such a dominant team doesn’t have more Division I athletes.
No. 2 — What are your thoughts on athletes making such big deals of their commitments? Certainly this kid, Nathan Scheelhaase, or Arthur Brown and Chris Harper, didn’t have the kind of ceremonies that Jimmy Clausen had when he announced his commitment with Notre Dame. But still. Live TV for Scheelhaase, kind of crazy.
Your thoughts?
July 20th, 2008 at 9:40 pm
my thought is this joanna-why dont u quit reporting on the same few kids all the time and concentrate on some of the other athletes that are working hard for a college scholarship. there are many to choose from.the brown boys and chris harper do not need your help for exposure but there are others who do.
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July 21st, 2008 at 12:39 am
First off, Coach, take it easy. Her mention of the Browns and Harper were for comparison purposes in how Scheelhaase made a big deal about the commitment to Illinois…(and Scheelhaase even had a commercial break built into the deal…ground-breaking…)
Back to the original subject, why has Hutch had no D-1 guys…
Well, they really have. Tossie went to 1-AA Idaho, the O-lineman Smith and Graves went to 1-AA Southern Illinois, and Kimmel was commited to 1-A Air Force before a coaching change made him decide to just become a student elsewhere. DeAngelo Green got hosed by KU and there probably are some more guys that were overlooked as Bill Snyder and “Scary Smart” Ron Prince were ignoring high schoolers in favor of JUCO prospects, and Terry Allen was busy recruiting NAIA talent, and Mangino and Co. were recruiting Texas like he was still at Oklahoma.
Why is Hutch good without a bunch of D-1 guys. It basically comes down to depth I think. Hutch has 22 different starters, and none of them suck. They then have 8-10 more guys that play the majority of the speical teams and none of them are bad either. They play a bunch of guys, stay fresh, and are coached really well. They also have a huge strategic advantage offensively, but I won’t go into that because I’ve already preached my “flex-bone triple option” sermon on the VK message boards and nobody wants to hear it again. Hutch also has a huge advantage in physical power against any team they play, as evidenced by them winning 12 of the last 13 6A state powerlifting competitions, and the weight room success can be attributed to Coach Dreiling too.
What Dreiling won’t say to you Joanna is that Hutch indeed probably hasn’t had a bunch of D-1 talent, but he’s developed a system that is so darned good that it doesn’t matter.
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July 21st, 2008 at 6:43 am
TFL … how did you allow somebody else to get in the first post? :)
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July 21st, 2008 at 9:17 am
TFL, thanks for backing me up here. You obviously understood what I was doing by mentioning those three kids, being they were the most recent high-profile signings the area has had.
Coach, I’m not here to get kids scholarships or make sure everyone gets “exposure”, I’m here to write about athletes and their stories. Sometimes those stories are one and done, sometimes they go on and on.
I get many, many comments on particular athletes, both on the blog and in my personal e-mail, which means that I’m hitting on hot topics.
Of course, I want to write about other athletes — which I do — but obviously I’m not hitting the ones that interest you. So who do you want to hear about? What conversation starter do you have out there? I’d love to know, either here or at joanna@varsitykansas.com.
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July 21st, 2008 at 9:28 am
Strategic advantage because of the system? I don’t buy that a bit. The flex bone is a horrific offense. What makes it work in Hutch is the O-Line, not the system. If you get a penetrating defensive line, the flex bone will blow up in your face.
What makes it work in Hutch is the dedication the kids have to the coach. Good coaches can prepare kids who may be lacking in talent to beat good teams. Plus having a 60 man roster doesn’t hurt. Now I’m not saying Hutch is lacking in talent. It’s exactly the opposite there. What I’m saying is, you can run singleback, I-formation, wishbone, spread, or whatever you want to with that offensive line and they will be successful.
I do agree that there is not enough media coverage here in KS for kids to go Division 1. Just look at what happened to the Brown boys. In my opinion, they weren’t anymore talented than some other kids in the state that I watched last season, yet somehow they’re top recruits in the country?? Media hype helps players, and there isn’t as much of it here (which I think is good for players characters).
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July 21st, 2008 at 10:04 am
DerbyPanther,
You obviously haven’t read my sermon on the offense. The flex-bone triple option offense is run by so many state championship teams over the last few years across the country it’s not even funny especially when you realize how few teams actually run it.
Do yourself a favor. Watch and see what happens at Georgia Tech under former Navy coach Paul Johnson. They’re going to take average ACC talent and win the ACC or come really close in his first year and everyone is going to be scratching their heads.
You’re right to a point though. I’ve seen coaches try to run the flex-bone when they haven’t done their due diligence to fully understand the nuances of the offense and it looks awful, just like a spread offense would look bad without a coach that knew what he was doing too.
The biggest reason I like the F-Bone T.O. is that it is a system that is repeatable year after year even when you have dips in talent. I’ve already gone into the reasons why a million times on the message board, so I’m not going into details.
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July 21st, 2008 at 10:09 am
DerbyPanther, really? The Brown brothers were no better than other athletes you saw last year? Really? I want to know who you were watching. No doubt, two of the best athletes I’ve seen in a decade-plus. Period.
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July 21st, 2008 at 10:31 am
Arthur Brown is the best linebacker prospect I’ve ever seen.
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July 21st, 2008 at 10:48 am
likewise
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July 21st, 2008 at 12:23 pm
I’ve seen a lot better linebacker prospects than Arthur Brown . I can even name them if you want Jeremiah Trotter (Hooks, TX), Jimmy Wilkerson (Naples, TX), Joe Pawelek (Smithson Valley, TX) and Sergio Kindle (Dallas, TX) all a ton better than Brown was in high school. But NONE of them were as fast as that guy, and the good news for Brown is that two of them played or are playing in the NFL. Wilkerson played LB in hs and college then eventually grew into the DT he is now.
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July 21st, 2008 at 12:46 pm
ks07, OK. But did you see what Derbypanther wrote? That “hey weren’t anymore talented than some other kids in the state that I watched last season.” That’s in Kansas. And it was last year.
And as I think more on the comment by derbypanther, do you really think media hype is the reason coaches like Pete Carroll are interested in an athlete? I think not. Maybe initially it gets some attention, but that doesn’t take you too far. You could have 10 stories done on you and not get a Division I scholarship. Then you look at a kid like Marshall Musil from Lacrosse. How many stories has he had in the national press? And he’s getting major looks. If you’re good, they’ll find you.
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July 21st, 2008 at 1:22 pm
Hey, do a story on Derby’s kicker.
Maybe that will get him a Division I look. ;)
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July 21st, 2008 at 1:59 pm
I do believe that Engwall is already getting at least few Div. 1 looks.
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July 21st, 2008 at 2:00 pm
DerbyPanther,
I don’t think you know much about how the flex-bone triple-option really works. As a coach I would pray for d-lineman that shoot upfield! If you really knew what the flex-bone was all about you would know how to defend it. And defending it by blowing gaps is not how it’s done. Squeeze sqeeze sqeeze!
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July 21st, 2008 at 2:07 pm
ks07-
I didn’t say Arthur Brown was the best high school linebacker I’ve ever seen, I said he’s the best “prospect” I’ve seen at the position.
I don’t know anything about Joe Pawelek, but the rest of those guys are all studs that’s for sure. To me, Trotter plays middle backer different from most the guys in the pro’s, and Wilkerson from what I can remember has always had a hand on the ground rushing the passer even back in the OU days, so I don’t really consider him a true “stand up” linebacker.
The thing that sets Arthur Brown apart from the guys that I’ve seen personally, (I don’t watch high school games in Texas) is that he’s not only lightning fast, but he has great instincts and has a “nasty streak” about him. The only question mark I have for him is I wonder how big he can get without compromising that speed.
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July 21st, 2008 at 2:17 pm
DerbyPanther,
As a coach I would pray for a d-lineman that shot up field! I don’t think you know as much about the flex-bone as you think you do. A defense typically does not defend the triple-option by blowing up field, in fact it’s quite stupid to fly up field. Why? Give, give, give. By blowing up field the d-lineman do not touch the o-lineman who now have a free shot at the linebackers. The fullback hits the hole so quickly that it’s nearly impossible for a d-lineman blowing up field to stop him.
Almost every coach will tell you, a d-line defends the option by squeezing the hole, not running up field.
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July 21st, 2008 at 2:21 pm
Thats a good point, how big can he get without compromising his speed. There was an article on rivals.com about the Top Gun Showcase and for Bryce they said that he “should easily be able to play at 225 pounds and still keep his elusiveness and power combination.”
http://footballrecruiting.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=828760
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July 21st, 2008 at 2:30 pm
looks like i missed all the fun ! so if i understand this right if my son dosnt get D 1 looks it is your fault Joanna ? lol Heck i think there are players that get a ton of “print” that are not even that good as it is.
TFL i have to call you out on this G tech/ ACC thing, i dont see that happening anytime soon my friend. This is big time football i dont believe that “system” in itself is going to transform a team there is to much speed im my opinion to dominate with the Flex Bone but we will see.
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July 21st, 2008 at 2:43 pm
“”In my opinion, they weren’t anymore talented than some other kids in the state that I watched last season”"
Logan Watkins
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July 21st, 2008 at 3:32 pm
joanna i do not think that it is your job to get kids exposure.i just think that it would be nice to hear about some other kids too,like a kid named dorian at heights who is a good prospect and i believe a 4 year starter.there is also rico huggins at east another D1 talent and 4 year starter.jeff page at andover central who is a college prospect and is ranked 4th in the nation in mens boxing in the heavyweight division at 17 years old.riley spencer of hesston who is definately a D1 talent.i understand that people are interested in the browns as am i.they are great boys and awesome football players and definately the best defensive and offensive players to ever come out of wichita,yes i do think bryce is better than barry sanders but only time will tell for sure.
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July 21st, 2008 at 5:51 pm
Just wait Fballfn…
Navy has been putting up ridiculous offensive numbers against a schedule that consists of mostly ACC and Big East competition, and Navy didn’t have anywhere near the talent levels of those teams they were stomping. When you mix the F-bone T.O. with the ACC talent level that Georgia Tech has, you’re going to put up some unreal offensive numbers. Johnson moving from Navy to Georgia Tech is a big deal, and 3 years from now you’ll understand.
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July 21st, 2008 at 6:58 pm
I will be here TFL so we will wait and see my friend.
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July 21st, 2008 at 8:08 pm
i second the Logan Watkins. Kid did everything for goddard as far as offense and defense and special teams for that matter. 3 year starter in 6A is damn good. Everyine who watched him play will back him up
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July 21st, 2008 at 8:12 pm
Engwall has already received heavy interest from the Oregon Ducks……. and other’s, he is in L.A. this week at another kicking camp working for exposure…..isn’t that where Harper sighned? The kicking position doesn’t always get the attention, but i am sure excited for him this year.
Hey JoAnna…I read a story in the Eagle some time back about two boys moving back to wichita from florida. The story was that their Ill grandmother has never got to see them play, and according to the article these two brothers are quite the players who will be attending Heights…..Your thoughts….and no i am not recruiting :)
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July 22nd, 2008 at 6:33 am
Jimmy Wilkerson Started the 2000 National Championship game as a freshman at OU at OLB. Played quarterback and linebacker in high school and was a pretty good qb. Joe Pawelek plays for..Baylor I think.
Stopping the flexbone…assignment football all the way. It’s tough against a team that has better athletes than you.. just remember guys it’s not the X’s and O’s it’s the Jimmys and Joes.
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July 22nd, 2008 at 8:33 am
I can’t remember where in my post I mentioned D-linemen “blowing up field, or shooting gaps”. I mentioned penetration. Which is push. By shoving the guards into the fullbacks you lose the capability of running the option. Whether it be with the flex bone or the I formation. If you can win the battle at the line of scrimmage, you lose. Hutch has been winning ballgames because of this, not the system they run. GTech will not win ballgames because the run the Flexbone offense. Those days are over.
As far as Arthur Brown is concerned, I actually didn’t get to watch him last season, he hurt his ankle when they came to Derby. I guess my comment was directed more towards his little brother who’s getting hyped as a top 20 recruit. I was not impressed by his running abilities at all. He simply bounced, and bounced, until he reached the corner. Now he did have breakaway speed, but so do half the running backs in the state. You’ve got to have tackle breaking abilities, and make you miss moves to become a top 20 recruit in my book. Until he shows me something more, I’m not jumping on his bandwagon.
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July 22nd, 2008 at 10:27 am
Sorry DerbyPanther, i took penetration as simply getting upfield. by saying getting a push or controlling the line of scrimmage I certainly would have understood it. Though, if you can control the line of scrimmage from the defensive side, it doesn’t really matter what kind of offense the other team runs. I see your point about the type of offense ran doesn’t matter if the line of scrimmage is controlled.
I am reluctant to say that Gtech will do well just because they are going to be running the f-bone offense. To me, college players are too athletic and too smart to not be able to defend the f-bone.
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July 22nd, 2008 at 10:31 am
DerbyPanther, take off your sunglasses and smell the roses. Are you saying Bryce can’t break tackles.
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July 22nd, 2008 at 1:13 pm
Well, I’m pretty sure that Pittsburg and Notre Dame had plenty of athletic and smart players on the sidelines for them last year, but they were beat by Navy, who maybe has 5 guys that are BCS conference caliber players.
Here’s an article from the baltimoresun.com from the ACC media day. http://www.baltimoresun.com/services/newspaper/printedition/bal-sp.acc22jul22,0,3553120.story
Here’s a quote I thought was good from Johnson…
“I get a kick out of, ‘Will this work on this level?’ ” said Johnson, wearing a gold-and-white Yellow Jackets pullover. “I’m like, ‘Are we playing the NFC East?’ Last I looked, the last six years at Navy we were playing Division I teams. We played five or six from the ACC. We played Notre Dame every year. I don’t think it’s a question of fundamentally will it work. It’s, ‘Can we execute it and run it just like any other offense?’ ”
A quote from Maryland’s Ralph Friedgen:
Maryland coach Ralph Friedgen recalled yesterday how the Terrapins had to rally to beat Johnson’s Navy team, 23-20, at M&T Bank Stadium in 2005.
“I don’t think anybody will like playing against it,” said Friedgen, whose team doesn’t face Georgia Tech this season. “I think Paul will try to develop a much better passing attack off it and then he’ll have balance.”
“I think Paul will drive people crazy,” said Wake Forest’s Jim Grobe.
“I wish he (Johnson) would have gone somewhere else,” said Clemson’s Tommy Bowden.
“Not many people have seen the offense,” Walker said. “I’ve talked to a couple players here already and they say it gives them headaches. It’s just like a machine. Once it gets going, it’s hard to stop.”
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July 22nd, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Derby Panther SAY WHAT “not impressed by his running abilitys” Either that was a joke or you are completely clueless ! I should go on one of my “rants” but im speachless other than to say thank god you dont run a football program you might have the waterboy playing tailback considering your abilty to evaluate talent !
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July 22nd, 2008 at 1:57 pm
D Panther i will pay your gate fee if you would like to come watch the no talent back put up 350yds opening night .
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July 22nd, 2008 at 3:45 pm
DerbyPanther — you know, I wanted to wait on posting on your Bryce Brown comment just to see if anyone else noticed.
I’ve waited long enough, and what I’ve gotta say is, Wow.
I’m no bandwagon jumper — I’ve seen this kid play three years. And I don’t claim to be a predictor of future stardom — but even the most conservative type of viewer (that’d be me) can see that he’s something special. My goodness, his speed, his size, his cutting ability, his ability to run over defenders. I can’t wait to see his improvement from last season when he definitely had issues with hanging onto the ball.
But the Wichita area has a special opportunity to see a special athlete. Enjoy it. Sit back and watch this kid become one of the best this city or state has ever seen. When he was a sophomore we were already talking about where he’d rank among our Top 100 Wichita athletes that we did a few years back. Yeah, he’s special.
And I hope you were joking. I really, really do.
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July 22nd, 2008 at 3:59 pm
If Bryce Brown would have run behind Hutch’s line last season, he would have gained probably 2000 yards playing 2 quarters a game due to the lead being so big.
If he sticks to his commitment at Miami, which is a 99.99% probability I’d guess, he’ll probably start for them as a true freshman, and if not, he’ll be in the rotation at tailback atleast as a true frosh.
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July 22nd, 2008 at 4:33 pm
derby panther- ru on crack? why would any back ram into the defense if he can simply outrun them? i have watched bryce play since he was a little boy and believe me he can do it all.the only knock on him is he has been prone to fumble and that is something he has been working on.bryce is the best back in the country and i believe he will be the fastest kid in college football as a true freshman.he runs as fast as he has to.how many times has anyone seen him get run down? the only time would maybe be when he has already run the ball at least 20+ times and thats a big maybe.i guarantee u this kid is n.f.l. bound,so u better get your autograph now while u can.
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July 22nd, 2008 at 5:13 pm
New video on Hovpen lists Bryce as the second best back out of the Top Gun Camp this past week. It also mentions Jaydan Bird stock soaring out of summer camps he has been attending.
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July 22nd, 2008 at 5:49 pm
I agree with everybody else on this, Bryce Brown is a special player. But in DerbyPanthers defense, im going to assume that you have only seen him in the Derby-East game in which almost all of his yards came off of bouncing the ball outside and he really didnt seem to break many tackles that game. But i think that credit goes to the Derby defense who is great at swarming to the ball. Anyway you cut it he still had over 250 yards rushing in that game. But watch video on this kid and you will see that he has all the tools to be a great RB.
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July 22nd, 2008 at 7:12 pm
Derby’s swarming defense?
Salina Central’s Andrew Braxton ran for 350 yards on them, and he was sick.
Why break tackles if you can just outrun everybody?
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July 22nd, 2008 at 7:44 pm
Derbys defense greatly improved over the span of the season and thats why i say anyway you cut it he still ran for 250+
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July 22nd, 2008 at 7:44 pm
Maybe the “swarming defense” just “swarmed” to the wrong places…giving up 29 points a game….they must be swarming to the water buckets or something!
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July 22nd, 2008 at 8:51 pm
By swarming im not saying that they were the best defense in the state or anything like that, all i mean is that once someone gets ahold of you the entire team helps to finish the tackle so there werent a lot of broken tackles, maybe a lot of missed tackles or players bouncing outside but not a lot of tackles being broken
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July 25th, 2008 at 7:33 pm
The Hutch coaching staff did a real disservice to placekicker/db Kelly Roberts last season. He was having a good year. Had range and accuracy on his field goals. Got hurt, rehabbed, and was medically cleared to play. However, they decided his season was over as well as the basketball coach. That’s no way to treat a 4year player. Good luck this season Kelly.
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July 31st, 2008 at 4:28 pm
This is pretty deep in the discussion so you may not see this message, but where is Roberts going to play next year. I know he signed with HCC, but I think I heard that somewhere else had offered that was a 1-a program. Thanks in advance.
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August 31st, 2008 at 2:18 pm
My Son is a member of the Seventh grade team this year has been closely watched by Coach Dreiling as has most of the kids in his class since they were in the fourth grade. In my mind that is what has been making Hutch such a powerhouse. These kids feel like they are a part of the program long before they ever get there. He has them working with the older kids in the weightroom over the summer, and the smaller guys think its great.
The comment about the O-line is only part true…These kids have been running the same off. since they start playing as third graders, once they get to highschool there is no need to spend a ton of time teaching and learning the playbook which allows them to work on reps and small details. The lack of D1 player I feel is partly do to the fact that most College level coaches feel that the kids are products of the system and not that talented. I have a highschool buddies that are coaching at Texas Tech, and Washburn and they both told me the same thing.
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