Is City League football overrated?
Oct. 7, 2008 @ 10:22 a.m. by Joannaby joanna
There was a person who commented on just this topic, saying that we’ll soon find out if the City League is overrated. Such a comment doesn’t surprise me. Why? Well, the first reason is that it’s from a fan and fans are fans only of their own team and rarely can see past that.
Secondly, the City League tends to struggle outside the league and it’s been since 1987 that a league team won a state title (Kapaun Mount Carmel). It’s been since 1983 that a public school league team won a title (East). So, yeah, I can understand the sentiment.
The City League gets hurt, I believe, because of its strength of schedule. There are too many teams that are below average and just don’t push teams. That hurts the top tier teams immensely. (The same is true in girls basketball and volleyball, where there are about 2 or 3 good teams and the rest rarely challenge those teams. That’s why Heights girls go to the Fort Smith, Ark., tournament, why the Bishop Carroll volleyball team annually goes to the Lawrence tournament. Even if you lose, your team is better for it.)
But let’s look at this year’s City League.
Bishop Carroll: This team is not overrated. If you don’t believe me, check the Eagles out. This team is legit. They have a strong defense, and that offense is the best in the area. Blake Bell is a poised quarterback (I can’t believe this is his first season), who rarely makes mistakes and has the ability to read defenses, run and complete passes. He’s also got a ton of receivers, who have the ability to make the spectacular catches, including the tough ones over the middle. Carroll also mixes in just enough with its running game to keep defenses honest. (Also, remember that Carroll went to the 5A title game last year.)
Heights: I don’t see how any team can question the Falcons. Heights not only beat Bishop Carroll (OK, so Carroll didn’t have Joe Brown, but Heights still got the W in the season opener), but Heights went to Great Bend and won big. That says a lot to me. Say what you want about how good Great Bend is, but fact is, it’s a strong program under Bo Black and that’s a tough place to play. Heights’ defense is for real, as well. The Falcons have beaten Carroll, Great Bend and Northwest and have given up a league-low 51 points (21 of those came against Carroll). Heights also has solid run production from Richard Dixon and Dominique Hill. Quarterback Chris Boyd is putting up OK numbers.
Northwest is the third-best team in the league, nothing to be ashamed about considering the two teams above the Grizzlies.This is a team that will easily make the playoffs, and really does have a chance to advance considering it has veteran, athletic players. Most of this team returned from 2007. But Northwest’s weak district of Campus, North and South (a combined 2-13) could hurt the Grizzlies heading into the playoffs.
East and Southeast follow are next in the City League. Both have big-name players in East’s Bryce Brown and Southeast’s Joseph Randle (he prefers Joseph, by the way). But both have issues, especially with young players on the offensive line.
The league really drops off after those teams. Kapaun has one win, North is winless, South has one win, West has one win.
But let’s compare to other leagues. Take the Central Plains League. This league is so top-heavy with Garden Plain the best of the bunch, followed by Cheney, Conway Springs and Medicine Lodge. The only other team with a winning record is Wichita Trinity.
The AV-CTL Division I has three top teams in Derby, Hutch and Salina South. Goddard has fallen off, Maize and Salina Central are OK.
Division II has two top tier teams in McPherson and Newton. The rest have struggled immensely and don’t have a winning record among them.
Division III is pretty tough. Andover has proven to be the best of the Division, but Andover Central and Buhler are right there. Mulvane’s not too far back, and El Dorado is respectable.
In Division IV, Andale and Rose Hill are tough, so is Wellington, but Circle, Clearwater and Kingman are struggling.
OK, so there’s my thoughts. I spent way too much time on this post. Feel free to fill me in on your thoughts.
jjflash2b says:
October 7th, 2008 at 10:45 am
I don’t know. I’ve seen some CL games this year and yeh they’re some good teams, but I think it’s more about individuals and not teams. Back in the day ‘78 to ‘80 SE and KMC had some quality teams, kids up and down the roster at most positions that would crush some of the so called better teams now in the CL and surrounding area.
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Joanna says:
October 7th, 2008 at 10:46 am
jjflash2b, OK. I understand your point. But I was talking about this season. Do you think the CL is overrated this season?
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Jack says:
October 7th, 2008 at 10:48 am
What has the city league produced for D1 football in the past 10 years?
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jjflash2b says:
October 7th, 2008 at 10:52 am
Joanna, overall I’d have to say yes, with the exception of BC and Heights. Like I said there is some great individuals on teams but not that many strong dominant teams in the league this year.
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ks07 says:
October 7th, 2008 at 11:44 am
It’s not overrated in my eyes because in my eyes I don’t rate them very high anyways. With the exception of carroll nobody else has done anything in the playoffs.
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shocker528 says:
October 7th, 2008 at 11:55 am
On the whole I don’t think the league is overrated because I cannot think of many who put the league in high esteem. Joanna has correctly drawn a picture of the league: you have two strong teams that deserve props, three so-so teams, and four not-so-good teams.
That said, I hope BC and Heights can make a lot of noise in the playoffs and bring more respect to the CL.
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Hovpen says:
October 7th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Every league has a couple good teams, three so so team and some teams that finish up the bottom. Overall, the quality of play is better this year than in the previous three.
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RealityCheck says:
October 7th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
I would have to say yes, overall. BC and Heights are legit this year. I’ve always thought NW got WAY too much hype, due to Schartz. I think that your assessment of the disparity in the league has a great deal to do with their lack of production outside of the CL.
However, BC slapped Newton in the playoffs last season, but Heights didn’t do a whole lot. Carroll made a good run and could very well have been the state champion had idiocy not ruined everything.
West, North and South have really dragged the league down for a long time. Kapaun is really looking bad this year. We’ll have to see if they can resurrect themselves in time to make a run in their district. If they keep playing the way they are, Newton could dominate that district. Kapaun is virtually guaranteed one of the top two spots, but that district really gets the shaft for the runner-up, so they’d be playing a VERY high seed in the first round.
Long story short, CL is overrated.
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joanna says:
October 7th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
OK, this is probably something I should have asked earlier, but I didn’t think of it until now — who is rating the City League so high? I know that I’ve never called it the best league in the area, certainly not in the state.
So is this just a perception that people think it’s rated highly? Now, basketball, yes, I rate it high. It’s the best boys league in the state and has been for years.
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derbyboy says:
October 7th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
You can’t really say if the city league is overrated yet or not, i think they are but thats just me personally.
but no one will know untill then
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TFL says:
October 7th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
I agree with others in saying I don’t think the CL is over-rated because I don’t think most people see the CL as being a difficult league.
With that said, I think that Carroll and Heights are both REALLY GOOD.
It is difficult to compare the City League with the AVCTL due to there only being 6 teams per division in the AVCTL, and the EKL has only 6 as well.
The best comparison would be the Centennial League or the Sunflower League. I think the City league stacks up fine with the Centennial League by it isn’t even close to the quality of teams that are in the Sunflower league from top to bottom.
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shocker528 says:
October 7th, 2008 at 1:04 pm
Someone needs to do a quick analysis on the average winning margin in CL games this year vs. last year. It seems that there are a lot more blowout games this year, which leads me to believe that on the whole play is not improved this year. You simply have two teams head and shoulders above the rest. How good they are remains to be seen, but here’s hoping both do well.
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Hovpen says:
October 7th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
0-5 Goddard goes to OT with BVW, Maize beats their BV opponent.
As for the City League, They are doing very well against outside competition this season. I believe only two losses.
1 to 4-1 Hays by 1-4 south and one loss to Dodge City by one point by North. Everyone else has beaten their outside opponents that I can remember, but then, my memory ain’t what it used to be. So so far, I would say the CL is doing OK against other opponents. As for overrated, Heck no, how can they be overrated, nobody on here thinks they are worth a crap anyway.
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BOSS says:
October 7th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
city league is overrated…bishop carrol needs to be excluded from that lable tho!
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coach101 says:
October 7th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
The talent in the city is hands down the best. I have been around the state and have seen what KC and Topeka have it doesnt compare. THe differance is there is no Junior High fb so when our kids are in a program for for years and a kid from say hutch is ina program from lttle league to junior high to four years of high school, that is a huge advantage. And what makes a great league state champions becasue last i checked only one team in a class wins one everyyear so does that mean if your league doesnt have one it is garbage. Wichita does a good job given its situation of transiant kids lack of middle school support
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Big Kansas says:
October 7th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
Why can’t i post a comments
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Big Kansas says:
October 7th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
I definitely don’t think the CL is overrated. We have good football teams in the CL and we know who they are. As far as individual players, ALOT of players are not being able to showcase their talents and capabilities due to favoritism and cliques and we know who they are. Let’s me for real. If I get to play all the time and get the ball all the time, I definitely would be a SUPERSTAR player….
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The guy says:
October 7th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
El Dorado is respectable arn’t they horrible?
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SEC FAN says:
October 7th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
Joanna, I agree completely with this statement ”
There are too many teams that are below average and just don’t push teams. ”
Me being an out of stater (Louisiana) We don’t have leagues we have Districts that determine playoff spots. You can play whomever you wish the first 3-5 games of the year and most schools schedule schools bigger than them because you recieve Power Points for playing a tougher schedule. Which in return build more competition for the kids. I believe as the DODGE CITY COACH mentioned here while back that KANSAS needs to get rid of leagues and allow schools to play who they want in the first part of the season prior to District play.
I mean Really people what good does it do to hold a league trophy if someone else is holding the State Championship Trophy?????
Also by allowing schools to play who they wanted you would eliminate all these blow outs the first 4 weeks of the season and allow some of these weaker school schedule teams that are more on their level. Which would make it easier for their kids to exp. winning.
Last but not least just think how much more money schools would make if Andale was playing 4-5 good teams those first 4-5 weeks or more Friday Nights of games like the Derby Hutch game. People like to see great games not blowouts. Take Cheney’s league you get outside of Garden Plain , Cheney and Conway Springs the WIN / LOSS combined record of all other teams is 12/15 thats horrible. And needless to say not fun to watch!!!! Hope I helped you out.
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coach says:
October 7th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
the city league is definately overated.all u have to do is look at how long it has been since any team has won state.how can u argue with that? there are many great players but they either are not well coached or they are too spread out.the biggest thing that hurts wichita high school football is no junior league affiliation.they all act like it dont matter and that they are such coaching gods that they can teach a kid all he needs to know in 4 yrs.hmm how long since a city league title? look at the teams who are winning titles they all have junior league programs that they support and have an input in.but i guarantee u they will keep doing things there same old way that dont produce titles and every year some team or teams says this is our year and it never is.
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Joe says:
October 7th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
I think that why Bishop Carroll (and Heights) are above the rest is because a lot of those kids start in 7th grade in the catholic schools leagues. There, a lot of the coaches have affiliations with the coaches. I think the other wichita city schools need to get a junior high league together. this would help newcomers learn the game before they get to high school and they would be more polished when they get there
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Fballfn says:
October 7th, 2008 at 7:31 pm
I agree youth and Junior league helps teams like Hutch,Derby,Rose Hilletc but i dont know that is helps BC at all as they those middle school teams are not taught the same system or even really coached real football to be honest even at the freshman level. It does help that they all go to school together and ‘buy in” to the system completely and that they have the best and biggest Varsity staff in the state. They are the most assignment sound team in the state.
A middle school league in Wichita will never happen and would only help if they had quality coachs in place to run the programs . If you really watch city league teams play then are NOT asignment sound and lack attention to detail which Bishop Carroll takes advantage of every week.
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BCstudent says:
October 7th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
I agree with Fballfn. The league that is in place for Catholic middle schoolers is less than perfect. The combination of different teaching systems, volunteers for coaches, and the fact that most boys are just starting out in football make the league fairly weak. However, it is a good precursor to high school football and teaches the boys how to play.
Bishop Carroll is the one exception of GWAL. Carroll has a fantastic defense and is the only team that is consistent every year. Why is there so much hype around Carroll? Because people expect our team to win, and we usually don’t disappoint. Coach Alan Schuckman celebrated his 103rd career win as head coach at BC. His program has been built up from our lowly status in the early 90s to the program it is today.
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vonerich2000 says:
October 7th, 2008 at 8:52 pm
High Schools in Wichita play football? Just kidding. Great talent, but a few good team and mostly poor ones. Why? I think several of the posters hit on the head. The Wichita School District needs to come up with a coordinated youth and middle school league system. How? I don’t know, but it would help in the teamwork area. Then those stars would shine brighter and the teams would too.
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TheTruth says:
October 7th, 2008 at 9:52 pm
In order to be OVERrated, the city league would have to be…rated. I don’t hear ANYONE saying how great the city league is. There are few football pundits who know enough about things to compare leagues as is. Those of us who’ve followed the GWAL for a while know how the league is situated. We generally have 2 to 3 very solid teams, followed by 2 to 3 mediocre teams, followed by 2 to 3 very poor teams. This is usually true year in and year out. There is a great disparity from the top to the bottom. To be a top league there has to be more depth. The fact that the league hasn’t won a state title in forever is not a big fact in my mind.
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Big B says:
October 7th, 2008 at 10:08 pm
I personally believe that the suburban schools have a distinct advantage due to being the only team in town and because of facilities. Derby, Hutch, Goddard, etc get all the premium athletes at one school instead of dividing them up like in Wichita. Carroll also has that advantage somewhat cause if you are catholic and want to go there all you have to do is pay the money. The facilities at all these non-wichita school are SO MUCH better than any wichita school its pathetic. Most of the suburban schools parents are also economically able to get their kids the best coaching and camps available in the off-season (ask Brandon Clark from Derby how many kids he took to Tulsa university for a week long summer camp and compare that to how many kids from East, Heights or West went to a camp that runs around $300.00.) I believe the majority of city league coaches are doing a great job with the facilities and amount of parent involvement they have to work with. The booster programs at the suburban schools are much larger and more active than at Wichita schools. Even with these shortcomings they are doing a pretty good job!!
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CL says:
October 7th, 2008 at 10:41 pm
“Carroll also has that advantage somewhat cause if you are catholic and want to go there all you have to do is pay the money.”
Actually almost everyone at Carroll attended a LOCAL Catholic school. I really don’t see this as an advantage I mean look at Kapuan they are a Catholic school and I dont’ see them being as successful as BC. The main reason BC is so successful is because of the coaching staff, not because people pay their way into Carroll. BTW the parish the student attends pays for them to go to school at BC. (Just incase you didn’t already know)
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Hank says:
October 8th, 2008 at 8:42 am
Jack: Who has the City League produced in terms of D1 players in the last 10 years? Try Kameron Wimbley from Northwest (’01). He went to Florida State and drafted in the first round by the Cleveland Browns and is a starting linebacker for them.
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shocker528 says:
October 8th, 2008 at 9:05 am
Just to back up the “strong talent” sentiment here, hovpen shows the CL statistically having the state’s top RB, the state’s top QB, and the state’s 2nd best WR (through 5 games).
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Crack says:
October 8th, 2008 at 9:10 am
BCstudent, your school is lucky to have the coaching it has now, what I mean by that is they are all good coaches, before Schuckman BC was the doormat in the league “They Sucked” now because of good coaching your one of the best programs around. BC has always had the kids just not the coaching. Coaching is everything good luck the rest of the year.
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BigFan says:
October 8th, 2008 at 9:33 am
What makes a great program? Coaching, coaching, coaching. Great coaches are in high demand. Great kids follow great coaches, ie, Chris Harper and remember that controversy when he transferred to NW.
One other thing improves the odds of a great program, student population. Check out the Eagles list of schools and their populations listed by divisions. Derby, huge population, Maize, big. Olathe schools, huge. BV system is gianormous. Bottom line, the coach is the key, ie. BC.
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Hovpen says:
October 8th, 2008 at 9:42 am
shocker528, remember most yards doesn’t necessarly equate to “best” Most yards is more equal to the quality of player around you helping you achieve those yards.
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shocker528 says:
October 8th, 2008 at 10:18 am
Statistically speaking (and it’s your stats), these are the top performers….it lends support to the notion that CL has great talent, although the league isn’t strong top to bottom in terms of teams.
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SEC FAN says:
October 8th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
BIGFAN, I think I finally found someone who knows something about atletics here.
Everyone thinks Athletes just fall out of the sky and they don’t. REAL COACHES develop this kids into good athletes. All you have to do is look around when a coach leaves a program usually it goes downhill(Derby for Example the last 5 yrs.) Look at Conway Springs the guy left who won 5 State Championships in a Row and they haven’t been back to one yet. Hutch wasn’t a power house until Drieling arrived and Kingman ran him out of town in the early 90’s.
Again BigFan I have come to respect you from your blogg above.
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Big B says:
October 8th, 2008 at 9:28 pm
SEC-coaching can only do so much without talent. The conway springs coach hasn’t done much since he left there. He even went to Derby and didn’t win. Went to Florida and didn’t win. Good coaches still need great or at least good athletes to make them look good. There are plenty of good coaches who just don’t have good athletes.
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suckitRHisthebest says:
October 9th, 2008 at 11:24 am
i do agree that city league football is overrated except for Bryce Brown and Blake Bell
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Svo69 says:
October 9th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
It does appear that city league football is enjoying somewhat of a resurrected reputation. I recall last year the Bishop Carroll coach paid a high compliment to the city league competion when he mentioned that the post-season success of his team was somewhat linked to the rigors of competition experienced in the city league. As an aside, I thought that was an extremely classy comment.
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suckitRHisthebest says:
October 9th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
there reputation is only back up because of the brown brothers and Blake Bell. doesnt look like there is much competition this year.
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Big B says:
October 9th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
CL-where does the parish get the money to pay the school???
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Joanna says:
October 9th, 2008 at 11:48 pm
I believe it works that if you tithe to your parish, all your kids go to the Catholic schools for free.
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SEC FAN says:
October 10th, 2008 at 9:24 am
Big B, Your right he didn’t do anything at Derby but he was only there one year I think , But in Florida he was succesfull 8-2 but his wife didn’t like it there from what I was told. And from what I hear he is doing well in Mizzu.
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